Lap Battle Rule Discussion

[Matt Guiver]

ya, i can see your point.  the problem is the WRX is getting sold to fund the race car.  oh well, there is always small bore.

ARG!  undelete undelete...  sell the house instead.  We would be sad without you Mr. Smith.

[dtcevo]

ya, i can see your point.  the problem is the WRX is getting sold to fund the race car.  oh well, there is always small bore.

ARG!  undelete undelete...  sell the house instead.  We would be sad without you Mr. Smith.

ha ha ha ha.......we will see.  i need something cheaper to daily but still want something fun.  i was thinking of allen's black 240.  or a civic with a k series in it. 

[yodaddy]

I understand that you know what a track car is, not debating that at all. But if something is not on paper there will be rulings considered to be unfair.

I agree that it is a great way to get cheap track time and get some timed laps in. But if the same person keeps winning the purse handily or based simply on their car others will start having a problem with it, it's just the competitive nature of people. I also know that people will not be comfortable feeling like they are helpng finance someone elses project unfairly.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, just asking the questions other people are thinking.

Also, who is sponsoring this? you keep say your "sponsors target demographic"
who would this sponsor or sponsors be?

[Biggie™]

Also, who is sponsoring this? you keep say your "sponsors target demographic"
who would this sponsor or sponsors be?

We have already secured our title sponsor and are getting close to finalizing with several supporting sponsors. I will post all pertinent information on sponsors sometime next week. Obviously, companies willing to sponsor Time Attack events will have a vested interest in automotive performance or will share a similar costumer demographic to companies that do.

[Exploding Dinosaurs]

This sounds like a great series. I don't think I will ever do fender-to-fender racing, but this sounds like something fun to try eventually.

Regarding the 10% slower and you're out: Statistics being what they are, you'll tend to get a superstar that is way ahead (and the amount ahead varies), a fairly close pack (fairly stable average), and some stragglers. It sounds like you are trying to keep the unsafely slow stragglers out. Just thinking statistically, it would tend to be more consistent to say "10% slower than the median time for the class." Choosing the median throws out very fast and very slow times, so very fast or very slow cars don't skew "how slow is slow" event to event.

A displacement limit would cut out the ponycar and Eurolux (BMW 5 and 7 series, Mercedes 600) demographic. Plus, Camaros and Mustangs are slow anyways, no need to fear them.

I like the idea of 140+ treadwear tires.

[solidnoah]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for getting a time attack event together.
I hope the rules evolve into, or something close to, the Redline Time Attack rules: http://www.redlinetimeattack.com/index-2.html

Then almost anyone with any car can be out there. It will also help us develop our cars for a national series that has at least one stop here.

Thanks again,
noah

[dtcevo]

I understand that you know what a track car is, not debating that at all. But if something is not on paper there will be rulings considered to be unfair.

I agree that it is a great way to get cheap track time and get some timed laps in. But if the same person keeps winning the purse handily or based simply on their car others will start having a problem with it, it's just the competitive nature of people. I also know that people will not be comfortable feeling like they are helpng finance someone elses project unfairly.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, just asking the questions other people are thinking.

Also, who is sponsoring this? you keep say your "sponsors target demographic"
who would this sponsor or sponsors be?

aaron and matt, i also think the rules need to be as wide open as possible so that anyone that wanted to come, can.  so that no one is excluded.  anyone with any type of car can run.  and then as the series grows, noah's point comes into play.  you expand to street, modified and unlimited class'.

[Biggie™]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for getting a time attack event together.
I hope the rules evolve into, or something close to, the Redline Time Attack rules: http://www.redlinetimeattack.com/index-2.html

Then almost anyone with any car can be out there. It will also help us develop our cars for a national series that has at least one stop here.

Thanks again,
noah

IMO, the redline rules are completely useless. They have 10 classes that don't really separate cars into anything more then several vague groups to only give the semblance of some kind of competitive classing and really don't separate performance potential.

Take the street class for example, a 99 rwhp stock '91 Miata would be up against a 700+ rwhp '98 Supra running HKS twins turbos... All in the same street class?

Now the modified class... Just about everything currently racing STC or Big Bore in the MPRA fits (or would fit with minimal work) and would be competitive in redline's Modified rules. That's great and all, another possible 10-15 cars to be spread across the RWD and AWD modified classes. But they are already going to be racing on the MPRA weekends and wont really need to also run a Time Attack. So if we are lucky, we get maybe 5 per class.

What about the Unlimited class? There is only one car in Utah that completely fits within those rules. And that's COBB's carbon car. So we have 3 whole classes with 1 competitor, if that, per class.

So now we have the 60+ local cars that fit in the street rules. And strangely enough, everyone that has posted in this thread up to this point would pretty much fall into those "street" rules.

From a business prospective, it's a no brainer. Cut out the one Unlimited Car, we aren't losing much, and it leaves prize money for the remaining classes. While we are at it, lets lose the 10 guys competitively running in Modified as most of them already have a place to race and more than likely already are. Even more money for the remaining classes. That leaves the Street classes and the multitude of competitors that are eager and ready to run.

That's my take on it, what do others think?

[Matt Guiver]

I do want an "Un-limited" class, and a "street" class.  I would like to see us grow to incorporate another run group and a second set of class's with d.o.t. rubber that doesnt require a street registration.  I would also like to parrallel existing series to help cross-over events.  But as with any race their is always a one sided fight.  Then again I have always enjoyed being the underdog.

I have always been a big enthusiast of driving my race car/bike to the track, racing, and driving home.  So I love the street class.  But the big draw for media events is incredibly fast cars, so I also want to see race cars, and track only cars putting down untouchable times.

Please bear in mind that we have a limited amount of space and so we need to conform to the majority.  Currently what we have seen in our time at the track is a surplus of street cars.  Our sponsors primary market is again street cars.  But ultimately this feedback is why these discussions are so important.  Keep those voices coming.

[Hechtrod]

I think running street tires is a good rule to keep cost down for those in the demographic that are not currently running at Track days or racing series.  The goal should be to get more people on the track to start developing their cars over the next few years to gain driving experience and tuning skills to make our area more competitive.  Then in a few years add a street and race/unlimited class.
If someone already has a "race" car with cage, race tires, previous track experience, this is not quite for them.  This isn't the Redline Time Attack series.  That's my 2 cents.
Chris

[Neria]

Matt/Biggie-
This whole idea is in my mind perfect.  Keep the classes simple and as the popularity of these events grows so can the classes.  I think anyone that is considering participating in this series should have a goal of winning; if not then stick with the track days.  Keep the classes competitive and the series will grow not just in participants but in spectators as well.  You guys are heading in the right direction and ultimately the tire rules should be determined by you guys.  Clarification on what a "race car" is would be nice. 

As far as the "If someone already has a "race" car with cage, race tires, previous track experience, this is not quite for them."
Do you mean all 3 of those things combined; it is not for them? Because Im pretty sure everyone in this forum has had "previous track experience."  So...

Thanks.

[vwbora1]

The simplicity of the proposed ruleset is appealing.  I just think it will be odd to race on street tires (haven't done that in four years).  I will have to do some research to see what works well when hot (RS2?)

[D Boyd]

Well, I definitely like the concept, and the simplicity of the rules. I don't think the classing is the best way to split up the field fairly, though any way you choose will have advantages and disadvantages. For me it will mean no chance for a hope of winning but as Matt pointed out, I will still be able to get relatively inexpensive track time AND be able to compare myself with other guys in similar cars, not to mention against my own previous runs.

For me, having the actual competitive day as Sunday eliminates me at any rate. Personally I think it would afford more chance for participation if you had the same format for both days. Then maybe you could still award a "lap of the weekend" or do something for folks that were fast both days. It would just allow some of us that can only do 1 of the days to still "compete" if you will.

If nothing else it might be interesting to see how my bimmer does on street tires 

[Neria]

If nothing else it might be interesting to see how my bimmer does on street tires 

I ran my stock "run flats" at the snocross and they were good for a street tire for the 1st run, then for the 2nd and 3rd it was a lot of work to keep the car straight.

Race tires

[Spectre23]

Then maybe you could still award a "lap of the weekend" or do something for folks that were fast both days.

Lap of the weekend would still require you be there on Sunday if you want your reward though.  I see your point.  But doing it this way just adds more temptation to skip church, therefore making your rebellion against god that much more rewarding