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Author Topic: Lap Battle Rule Discussion  (Read 11643 times)
skagroovy
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« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2008, 05:37:29 PM »

OK since the 4 day mpra school is 2k plus this year looks like pdx or solo for me...
so the question is can I participate in lapbattle  Yes or No....Huh?

I have a 88 mustang 5.0 with 275 rears and 245 fronts... It has a cage(bolt in), sub frame connectors, coil overs, strut tower brace and race seats... however i have built it from the ground up... never been raced and does not have a log book....engine is STOCK....

I would love to do this.... since wheel to wheel looks like a few years away for me....

late
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dtcevo
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« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2008, 08:22:51 PM »

i like the "race cars" being able to run with automatic DQ.  i think there are gonna be plenty of FWD street cars that are gonna blow my civic away though.  SRT 4, Mazdaspeed 3, any honda with a K series, turbo or built N/A motor.  but i would just like the opportunity to run.

like i said though.  no matter what the rules, i will find something to drive!!
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vwbora1
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« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2008, 10:15:20 PM »

V710s work in both environments.  Chances are also good people have "used" tires that fit their rims in the garage.  Really just saying that as a SP competitor it would be easier to run on R compounds than to buy street tires.  I know people in stock who also fall into the same situation as they run all-seasons on the street and Rs at Solo events.

FWIW, I wasn't advocating for HP limits, I was just saying a class split between a 2.8 and a 6.0 might be nice.  Personally, I'd rather run against Eric's VW than Spanky's Vette as my RWD BMW is closer in performance to Eric's FWD car.  Having said that it is a fact of life that no matter how you divide it someone will benefit while someone else will suffer.  This is your baby so go with what works for you.



I thought my V710s felt great on the East track.. I couldn't really feel any degradation after the third lap (that is, grip probably peaked on the second lap and then the tires got too hot to be optimal, but laps 3-10 felt the same).

V710s in my size are $212 - MXs are $123, so that's $360/less per set for street tires, but I wonder how many guys don't care about that differential (or are coming out of autocross and have Rs already, just like George said).

Classing is tough - I guess all the autocross guys who end up being split up (fast SM/SP cars getting split into all three categories) can just compare raw times?  That might be as good a work-around on the rules as any (and I'd love to see my car vs George's on the track).
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ChrisFM2
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« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2008, 08:18:31 AM »

Another vote for any DOT tire.
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Biggie™
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« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2008, 10:17:20 AM »

Classing is tough - I guess all the autocross guys who end up being split up (fast SM/SP cars getting split into all three categories) can just compare raw times?  That might be as good a work-around on the rules as any (and I'd love to see my car vs George's on the track).

Yes, there currently are 3 classes, and with those there will be 3 class winners per event. But there will also be an overall winner at each event. So it's not like you are completely split up.
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Neria
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« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2008, 10:09:47 PM »

I would agree with that.  I think these rules need to be set in stone and there should be no gray area for anyone to whine about. 
You mean it shouldn't be judged like drifting.  "Sure your time was faster, but that car made such better lines, so he wins"   Grin

Exactly!
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johnnytran
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« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2008, 12:44:52 AM »

First and foremost I want to thank all those that are spending time and resources to create such a concept and a race series. I know it must be far more difficult and time consuming that we can start to imagine. Thanks for promoting racing!

Deciding on a ruleset really is a done after the decision of what the goal of the series is. I think it would help to know what the end goal is as this will refine your conversation to better discuss rules.

From my perspective you have a few options on how to approach time attacks, as others have tried:

Option #1 - GT LIVE (aka "the culture"). There might not be the breath and depth as other series, but it's about spreading a culture and style just as much as the racing. It's what happens off the track as much as what goes on. It's glitz and glam - but hey, it makes headlines, creates internet chatter, and makes the magazines.

Option #2 - Redline Time Attack (aka "the grassroot series"). This is a grassroots series that caters to the drivers and the purity of the sport more than other options. The rules are flexible, but are getting more and more strict as they mature their series. It doesn't have the glam, but most of the best drivers and cars come out and so do the press coverage and the sponsors.

Option #3 - Super Lap Battle (aka "The sellouts") This is Super Street's concoction but has grown to something more over time. It's more about selling parts and magazine subsciptions - oh and sometimes there is good racing. The rules are catered about surfacing a product, satisfying sponsors, and making great headlines. For example, keeping information like the HKS EVO being completely illegal in any other sactioned time attack series in the U.S. is kept more "hush hush" because, well, it's fast. Or eliminating Porsches because it doesn't help you sell magazines. Or V8s. Or pushrod anything. Or anything else that makes your demographic look bad. I think Matt Guiver said it best, "[T]he big draw for media events is incredibly fast cars, so I also want to see race cars, and track only cars putting down untouchable times." Well, he's got a point. Fast cars are what create buzz for their respective audience. These guys have figured this out better than anyone.

Option #4 - NASA TT (aka "Old Skool" or "HeyWeDidThisWayBeforeYouThoughtThisWasPopularSoThanksForComingOutYouNoob") - National, organized, only one with actual membership and dues. Rules are different than the Unlimited/Limited AWD/RWD/FWD classing of the other series. Doesn't have the appeal or glam as the other options, but the structure works and is supported to a broad range of cars (read v8s) with classes for anything under the sun.

Option #5 - Cobb Track day or Subiefest (aka "the festival") - since these are fewer, more annual/semi-annual events they are seen as a "family/make/model reunion" or a "celebration of racing" more so than trying to approach it as a full competition or a substainable series. But they do bring crowds and a happy bunch of enthusisasts showing off their improvements since their last gathering. Sometimes the races aren't timed - so everyone is fast and says so for the next few months on the internetz. Other times they are - so everyone is fast and says so for the next few months on the internetz.

----

While you think about goals and then rules around those goals, here are some questions I hope you answer along the way:


- What the reason I'm in the series? Is it for fun? Is it to improve my driver skills? Is it to engineer a car? All the above?
- Are you a feeder series? Are you anticpating my skills useful in another series? If so, which ones? Is my car for a feeder series? If so, which ones?
- Great, you have a series - but I hate spending my $10k and losing to guys with 3,4,5 times as much money. What are you going to do to make me want to come back and lose every time to someone in my class with more money and be happy about it?
- Great, I'm in a class with 6 guys, and I'm 4th every time and 3rd when someone can't come. The guys in front of me are far better drivers than me and very consistent, making the class "locked up". So if I go the next event I'm probably going to come in, well, 4th. What are you going to do to make me want to spend $150 each time to enjoy being a runner up to the podium yet again?
- What is more important when it comes to points, press, prizes, and sponsors - promoting each driver to improve their skills, for me to spend more money to improve my car, me getting money in prizes, or sastisfying sponsors?
- What's more important, keeping the series alive at any cost, or sticking to the original goals and values of the series?
- V8s - in or out? Porsche Cup cars - in or out?
- If I build a street legal locust car or I have an ariel atom, am I legal to compete even if it's a low quantity production or kit car? what if I tube frame a 2000 pound racecar, get some backwater county to give me a license plate, am I able to compete in the street legal class?

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The more I think about it I like the NASA TT based style of classifying cars with each car getting a "point" score and then moving up classes due to their upgrades and modifications. I see the possible benefits:
   - It can allow for v8s, porsche cup cars, race cars as well as the street cars because the "point" system moves cars up from "base" classes to their respective racing classes.
   - It follows generally (but not specifically) jid2's "slow,medium,fast" concept of bunching cars appropriately. By using points to rate cars it discourages sandbagging because they are already classed before racing with no benefit to going slower.
   - It also allows Biggie's argument of "It's not our fault ______ car can only run ____ size tire" or "It's not our fault ______ car wieghs ____ pounds" resolved. Each car can run whatever tire / weight they want, but gain points based on how extreme they go respective of their base car and class.
   - It allows for an "unlimited" class with your crazy lappers. It's what you use as your flagship cars for the sponsors and advertising.
   - It allows a newcomer to race without being intimidated by bigger competitors/more modified cars.
   - It allows AWD,FWD, and RWD able to run in the same class.
   - It (potentially) allows for a wide range of type of tires and widths, since each would come with their respective "point" penalty (and potential class upgrades).
   - By sanctioning rules similar to a series like NASA you still leave cars potentially eligible for other local/regional/national series as well as other noterized time attack series in the country. (And allow me to fulfill my lifelong goal of making it into Super Street Magazine and next to it have a joke from the editors I heard in the 5th grade as the caption Smiley )

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A few last notes:
   - I like the idea of rewarding top competitors as well as the most consistent lapper in each class. This way the top racer wins, but the "little guy" can still have a chance for prizes by improving his skills and better knowing his car - and makes him want to come back and spend $150 to come in 5th again. Wink
   - I like the idea of points given throughout the season per class. This also promotes competitors to keep their car running, keep it coming to the events, and rewards consistency.


Hope this helps. Good luck with the series. I really look forward to its formation and success.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 12:52:02 AM by johnnytran » Logged
ChrisFM2
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« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2008, 03:27:33 PM »

Rear wheel drive class would include a stock miata vs a Z06, Porsche Turbo or Lotus?  Can we make that a 15% differential? Wink
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Biggie™
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« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2008, 04:37:06 PM »

The more I think about it I like the NASA TT based style of classifying cars with each car getting a "point" score and then moving up classes due to their upgrades and modifications.

In theory the NASA rules are great... That's until you try to enforce them. All those points added up to put everyone into their appropriate class are basically on the honor system, Lap Battle officials don't have enough time to inspect every car to insure each competitor's points sheet reflects all the modifications that where actually done. But, lets just say that no one ever cheats in racing(ya right). Anyway, lets just say they don't so I can get to the second area on the NASA rules that don't work for what we are doing.

Too many classes, TTA, TTB, TTC, TTD, TTE and TTF... There are 6 already and I'm not even done. According to the NASA rules, any competitor with a 8.7:1 or better weight to HP ratio gets put into TTS. And if you have even more power, a 5.5:1 or better weight to HP ratio gets puts you in TTU. That makes 8 classes and a mandatory dyno run for any modified cars! Everyone cool with getting their car dynoed right before the event for $60-$90, all while hoping everyone isn't cheating on their points or their dyno pull?

As I have said, I'd like to keep it to three classes. So, we could combine the TTU, TTS and TTA classes, eliminating the need for a dyno sheet. TTB and TTC go into the second class. While TTD, TTE and TTF run in the third class. Competitors
can police each other and everyone will be HAPPY!

Here are those NASA rules. Everyone else please read these and chime in...
http://nasa-tt.com/Rules

Rear wheel drive class would include a stock miata vs a Z06, Porsche Turbo or Lotus?  Can we make that a 15% differential? Wink
Better yet, can we just modify that Miata enought to keep up? The general idea of time attack is to run modified cars. I know of some local NA Miatas running similar times to Porsche GT3 Cup Cars. Sure they are both full on race cars, but you get the idea of how fast you can make a Miata with enough effort.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2008, 05:10:40 PM by Biggie™ » Logged

solidnoah
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« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2008, 07:18:47 PM »



hope this image works
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solidnoah
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« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2008, 07:33:53 PM »

Cool. we have been talking about it over here at Solid, and we have some ideas. We all want to participate, but feel the rules need to be a bit more clear.

And I hope I understand the rules, please correct me if any of this seems wrong.

In the morning maybe break it down by asking who is Beginner, Intermediate or expert. That way we can get an idea of who to run with who in the morning session. Then time them during practice, and break them into Slow, Medium, Fast run groups for the Afternoon session. Basically I would like to see people with similar lap times running in the same group, no matter what vehicle they are driving, to me, it would seem that it would inspire more confidence and be safer to slower drivers who dont want a fast car over taking them. So if your AWD you will still compete for the prize against the other AWD cars, but you will run the afternoon session with cars and drivers around the same caliber as yourself.

We hope with this, no one will be excluded from running because they are too slow. We want it to be a fun safe competitive event for everyone.

We still also feel like there should be a modified class with race tires, as I think it would bring out more spectators in the long run. We all want to see a Carbon fiber Cobb car-bizzle running ungodly fast lap times. We also feel like a "street" class should have a maximum tire width and rating, and possibly something like a catalytic converter to move the ultra high HP cars to unlimited..ect..

Thanks for everything you guys are doing, we think its awesome.

Please comment and we are looking forward to the event!
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solidnoah
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« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2008, 07:53:45 PM »

After speaking with Matt, I think we have this all mixed up. Thanks for helping us noobs out Matt! Please disregard our last posts.  Grin

Thanks
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George
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« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2008, 11:28:06 PM »

I've spent a little time thinking about all of this and came up with a couple of ideas.  Having more than two classes doesn't really make sense as you will be separating the classes into two groups for the last sessions anyway.  Using the SCCA Solo rules because many of us are familiar with those I suggest something along these lines for classing:

Group 1:  SS, ASP, BSP, XP, SM, and SM2 cars. 
Group 2:  A-H stock and F-C Street Prepared cars.
Keep your street licensed requirement and allow any DOT tire as those are street legal by definition.

Dividing it the way I have allows for most people to run against someone who should be running similar times.  Group 1 would allow pretty much any street legal car including full CF bodied cars and those with engine swaps as long as they are street legal.  It also groups all the fast or potentially fast cars together.  Group 2 would cover people who have not done much engine work but have made suspension changes.  IMO, this fits in with your stated goal of bridging the gap from PDX/Solo to full road racing.  For those who want to later move to road racing all they would need is the required safety equipment.  For your unnamed sponsors this would provide them a chance to fill in the parts needed to get a car competitive in either class and/or to move up.  It would also be fun to watch as Group 1 could include Corvettes, Porsches, EVOs, Silvias, swapped Hondas all running against each other.   

One point people need to remember: Cars in each class need to run fairly close lap times.  Huge differences in times will only result in the common track day train.  Those trains will only frustrate people and make them want to do "stupid things" around someone else's street car. 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2008, 11:32:15 PM by George » Logged
Neria
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« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2008, 10:35:59 AM »

For the less informed like myself what are the necessary elements in a car to be "street legal"


(Matt I know we already went over this 2 weeks ago...)
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« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2008, 01:44:30 PM »

Dividing it the way I have allows for most people to run against someone who should be running similar times.
The two separate run groups divided by lap times have little to do with actual classing. We both know that just because two drivers have similarly prepared cars with similar performance potential, that has little to do with how close their times will be on track.


For the less informed like myself what are the necessary elements in a car to be "street legal"
That question was pretty well answered in the original rule draft on page 1 of this thread.

All vehicles must be legally registered, licensed and in safe working order.



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